A Complete Collection of State Trials Vol. XXIII – Thomas Jones Howell (1817)
pp1292-1301
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Did you go to Borrowstounness ?—I went first to Stirling, and came through Borrow« stounness in coming back.
You were in Queensferry ? Did you show any of those papers in Queensferry ?—No, I did not. Did you distribute any in Stirling ?—I think I did. Did you or not ? I will not take that answer.—I think I gave some in Stirling. You did not leave any in Queensferry ?— Because I did not see any person there in particular. Had you any particular person that you were directed to at the Queensferry?—No, I had not, I had an acquaintance at Queeus- ferry. Then you went to Stirling ?—Yes. , Did you or not give one or more of these papers to any person in Stirling?—Yes, I gave them to all the folks I called at. Now, sir, do you, upon your oath, recollect the name of any single person in Stirling to whom you gave the paper ?—There was a Dr. Forrest, andtthere were two or three more there, I gave one or two. I just gave them in the morning. In whose house was it you gave the papers to Dr. Forrest and the others ?—It was i» Dr. Forrest's house. Pray had you ever seen him before ?—No. Then how came you to go to his house?—I had heard him spoken about before in Edinburgh. I ask you—was it not in the committee of Ways and Means Dr. Forrest's name was mentioned?—Dr. Forrest's name was not mentioned to me there. Was it Mr. Watt who mentioned the name of Dr. Forrest to you?—No, sir. Do you say that upon your oath ?—Yes. Did you mention to biro any tiling with, respect to the committees that were established in Edinburgh ?—I suppose that letter would tell him. i Did you do it yourself?—! suppose I might tell him so. Did you ask of Forrest the number of patriots in Stirling ?—I could not say whether I asked him the particular number or no—I asked him how the society was flouribbing there, or something ofthat nature. Did you ask him any thing else about the society ?—I do not recollect asking him any thing more about it. Do you not recollect asking him any tiling else?—Other persons were prebent in Forrest's house at that time. Who were those persons—do you remember them?—Doctor Forrest went with me and got them—I think there was one of them they called Thomson. How many were there of them?—There were two or three besides that Mr. Thomson. How long might you remain in company |
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with these persons?—We might be there an hour or two. Did you understand these persons to be wh«t they call Patriots, or Friends of the People?—Yes. What was the substance of your conversa- tioB in general ?—They would begin with the news of Stirling, and I was telling them the news of Edinburgh. Do you recollect in general any one circumstance relative to the committees in Edinburgh which you staled to Forrest, and Thomson, and others?—I have no doubt I would tell them about the committees, but I spoke to Dr. Forrest about the plan I have already told you. What was that?—About imprisoning those that I bave already spoke of. Well, what did Forrest say ?—I am sure I do not recollect what he said. Did Forrest say any thing in reply?—I do not recollect. You mentioned that plan to Forrest ?—Yes, I mentioned it tu him. Did you mention any thing in that corn- puny with respect to the plan of arming in Edinburgh, whether for self defence or any thing else?—I may have told them that I heard the Friends of the People had offered their service to the duke of Uuccteugh, or something of that sort—I might also have told them what was done in Perth. While talking to Dr. Forrest or any one else, did you, or did you not draw upon paper or upon the table, in company with one of these men in Stirling a drawing of that pike or battle-axe similar to what you had seen in Edinburgh?—take care before you give the answer, it is very material you should take care ?—I recollect it—I believe I did. Lord Advocate.—He now recollects in consequence of a specific question I put to him —lie recollects making a drawing of those weapons which he had seen in Edinburgh to show Dr. Forrest W höre did you go to from Stirling ?—I went to St. Ninians. Whom did you see there ?—A Mr. M'Cross. What is he?—A minister. Did you show him any of the papers, or leave a copy with him ?—1 read it to him, and as far as I can recollect, I left papers with all the gentlemen. Was M'Cross a relief minister, or minister of Che parish ?— A relief minister. Pray, was M-Cross an acquaintance of yew's before that period ?—No, he was not. Did you ever see him in your life before?— No. How came you to go to M'Cross ?—It was some of the folks of Stirling gave me a direction. You went to Kirkintullocu or Cam paie от St. Ninians ; pray, whom did you call on there ?—1 called upon a Mr. M'Ewan, a minister, and Mr. Wheeler, a minister, a relief midister. . . Did you ever see them before ?—No. Who directed you tu them ?—I think it was Mr. M'Cross—the man at St Ninians. Where did you go next?—I went to Campsie. To whom there?—I do not know the names of any in Campsie, Mr. M'Ewan went with me. What kind of people did you wish to be introduced to ?—The Friends of the People. You went to Glasgow and Paisley at last? —Yes. Was that the utmost extent of your tour ? you went no farther west?—No. Had you any acquaintance in Paisley before?—No. And whom did you go to there ?—I called first at a Mr. Hasty's there. Was he a Friend of the People ?—Ye*. Was he a member of the British Convention ?—Yes. And you left papers with him ?—Yes. Now, after you were at Paisley what did you do next? did you come home again?— Come home ? 1 came to Glasgow. Why not to Edinburgh? why not straight home )—I came home by the canal, but aid nut call on any body, and came home to Edinburgh. When you came back to Edinburgh where did you go first?—Straight home to my father'». How long did you remain at home ?—Just a short time after resting. Where did you go then ?—To the Committee of Ways and Means. Was it the usual night of the committees meeting?—Yes. Did you find any of them assembled ?— Yes. Who were they that were assembled ?— Those that were there, were Mr. M'Ewan, Mr. Downie, and Mr. Watt. You remember those three ?—Yes. Now, sir, did you report to them the result of your journey ?—Yes. Did you give any one of them the instruo tions you had found enclosed in the packet you received at Campbell's?—Not at that time, I gave them to Mr. Watt some days after. Did you, after your journey was over, or on your way, or in the committee, make up a list of the p'lares and persons to whom you gave those papers, whom you had seen in tin- course of your embassy ?—I took a list as I went along. What did yon do with that list ?—I gave the list to Mr. Watt also. You talked of instructions you found in that packet, was there any other paper yon found in that packet, different from the two copies you intended to distribute .'—There was another paper, authorizing me to call at the societies. Did yon show that paper to the different I societies you saw in the coarse of your pro* |
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gress, as your warrant ? —4 never was in the societies, but I showed tflem to the persons I spoke with. Do you remember what the general purport and tenor of that commission was ?—It was just desiring me to call at them. Do you recollect any thing else in it ?—It just directed me to call at them, and tell what I did when I came back again. \Vas the purport of this commission, that they might pay credit to you and receive you ?—I suppose so. Was that commission signed by any person or persons?—I do not recollect it being signed by any person or persons. You do not recollect whether it was signed or uot?—No. Do you recollect whether it was scaled or not ?—There were seals at it. Were there no names opposite to those seals ?—No. Not as I recollect. When you visited persons in the course of your jo.urn.ey, whom did you state your authority to come from ?—I said it was from the Committee of Ways and Means, and it was sealed.—I understood it was something to that purpose. And the people you showed it to, thought sotoo?-Yes. / Whom did you give that commission to ?— I gave it back to Mr. Watt also. After your return ?—Yes. Pray, sir, did you defray the expense of this journey out of your own pocket, or out of what fund?—I received from Mr. Downie, about 30 shillings. By whose order did you get that money P— Mr. Bonthrone gave rue a Tine to Mr. Watt, and Mr. Watt gave me a line to Mr. Downie, und Mr. Downie gave me the money. Look at that paper, and refresh your me- niory.—That is the list I gave in to Mr. Watt Mr. Anstruther.—Is that your hand-writing?—Yes, it is my hand-writing. What is that a list of?— Some of the folks I did, and some of them I did not call at. Did you call at all of those places ?—No, I did not call at any other of the places, than what I told you. For what purpose did you make out that list ?—I made it out that they might be corresponded with. Who were to correspond with them ?—The committee. Now, this is your hand-writing, is it?— Yes. Now, read the two first lines. Lord Advocate.—Begin at the top and read the three or four first lines legibly and audibly to the jury.—" Stirling, support by money." Tell me what word that is that is next to money ?—It is a blank. What is the meaning of that blank? there are three letters and a stroke between them, see what it is and make it out froin them ?— 1 suppose it is " courage." Lord Advocate.—Read it on now. Witness.—" Stirling, support by money, courage not great." Mr. Anstruther. — Gentlemen, there is " S g," which he hath filled up with the word, Stirling ; then it goes on " support by money," at full length ; then follows " С ge," which he tells vou, means courage ; then he tells you the line would run : " Stirling, support by money, courage not great." What do you mean by courage not great f perhaps that paper may refresh your memory as to what passed with Forrest and the rest ; tell me what is the next word, you say there is Stirling, support by money, courage not great ; what comes next ? Lord President.—What paper is that? Mr. Solicitor Central.—It is his own report, it means Stirling, support by money, but courage not great. Mr. Anstruther.—Tell me what is the next word.—I suppose it means " support." Cannot you tell us ?—It is a blank. You have filled up two blanks after a little difficulty, now fill up that.—That is " support," I suppose. And what are the words that are next r— " Not certain." There are two other little words ? — " support as yet not certain." Then the first beginning of this paper delivered back to Watt is, " Stirling, support by money, courage not great, support as yet not certain." Now, tell me, why did уом leave those three words blank ?—I left them blank. Why did you leave them blank ? was it, that it was not very safe to rill them up?—[No answer.] Lord AJro€ate. — Give an answer to the question, tell us whether your reason was, that you thought it not safe or what ? say one thing or the other.—I did not like to be writing that in the list. Mr. Anstruther.—The Jury will look at the names. You have said there were two papers in this bundle, one your commission, the other yûur instructions ? Did you ever show those instructions to any body ? — I showed them to the différent people I called upon. Did you show your instructions to Dr. Forrest ?—Yes, I showed them to all the people I called upon, and showed them to him among the rest, no doubt. You showed your commission to Dr. Forrest and all the rest ?—Yes. Do you recollect no more of those instructions than you have told us ? because if you do, L desire you to tell them now—if you d* пЫ, somebody else will. Jjord Advocate.—Take care what you say, they all saw your instructions. Witnett.—Those instructions I think spoke something about a plan, but I do not recollect the particular words. Mr. Anuí utlur.—l Jo not waul them ; I de not desire the particular word» ; but tell me what the general purport of your instructions was as far as you recollect, and what plan it was it referred to ?—I did not say the plan. What did it say about a plan? — It was speaking about a plan, but I cannot speak the words. I have it in my idea, it spoke something about a plan, but I cannot say. Did it call it a great plan, or a grand plan, or something like that—did it or not? — I have an idea ofthat word being in, but I cannot tell exactly that there was the word grand plan. What was the grand plan to do ?—What that was to do, I could not tell. Was it to settle every thing ?—I do not mind of its just speaking in that way. What did you understand it to mean at that ! time, when a plan was mentioned in your ¡n- | slnictions?—I understood Mr. Watt speaking to me. But what did you understand it to mean ? , —It might be that plan Mr. Watt was telling | roe. Lord Advocate.—You will see what he says, half an hour after asking the question. Mr. Anttrutker.—Did it say any thing about the committee of secrecy ? — It spoke'something about a committee. . Wnat sort of a committee ?—It spoke about, I do not know whether it was secret or not ; it is impossible, I cannot keep in my mind every thin^. What did you say about a committee ? try it again.—.I have some idea that it spoke something about a committee of secrecy. Did it say any thing about Britain being free ? you have told us that it spoke about I the grand plan which Mr. Watt spoke about —did it tell any thing about being tree ? Lord Advocate.—Say yes or no which ever you like.—I think I remember of its saying something about that. Was Britain to be free when that plan was executed or not ; was the plan you mentioned before to be Mr. Watt's, was that the plan that ' was. to make Britain free or not ?—I tell you what I remember, viz. about its speaking something about those things, but I cannot ьау what. Did it say Britain was to be free; what was it, that was to make Britain free ? was it this plan or not ?—1 cannot recollect the expressions. Lord Advócate.—What was it that was to make Britain free ? was it the grand plan ?— It said something about it. What was it that was to make Britain free —the substance—the sense?—I think they were difieren! sentences as far as I could make them out. What was the sense of all the different sentences ?—It said they hoped Britain would be free, something of that kind. But you cannot say whether the plan was to do it or not?—It did not say, whether the plan was to do it or not. it might mean that. Whom were the committee of secrecy to correspond with t—They were to correspond with Mr. Downie. Cross-examined by Mr. Hamilton. I wish to know Mr. Fairlcv, did Mr. Watt at any time say to you he bad any intention of mastering the soldiery any where, of making himself master of the soldiers ? yoti mentioned in the former part of your deposition you had some apprehension about the soldiers, and Watt said he had no fear, and be conceived there were a great many friends, *nd repeated it. 1 wish to know whether Watt expressed himself so that he proposed the soldiers should be got the better of — I do not recollect his ever saying any thing about getting the better of the forces. Mr. f'rskme.—I think he said he made the tour of those different places without any instructions from Mr. Watt, but merely of hrs proper motive I wish to know if you have not sworn this?—He gave me no instructions. You said you had no instructions to go to all those places?—I just went and told them to correspond with Mr. Downie. Dr. Furrrjtt sworn. Mr. Aiutruther.—Where do you live?—lo Stirling. You are by profession a Surgeon ?—Yes. Do you know a person of the name of Fair- ley ?—A person of the name of Fairley cal M upon me some time ago, I am not absolutely certain. I think abuut the beginning of May last, I think Fairley called upon me then. Mr. Anstmtker.—Give the answer to the question Dr. Forrest. Did Mr. Fairley produce to you any written or printed papers?—A written paper he produced, after talking of some little matters of indifference. In what manner or character did Fairley introduce himself to you? — He said he was desired to call upon me by a Mr. Bell of Edinburgh. What was the general purport of the conversation?— I cannot recollect at this d»- tanre ? Did he tell yon for what purpose he came to Stirling?—I think he mentioned it was with a view to show in what situation the society was. You mean the society of the Friends of the People?—The Friend» of the People, roy lord. Did he show you any written paper?—He gave me three copies, of the number I am not absolutely certain, I think three, and a letter, a printed letter; I think it resembles this very much. Look at that.—And that likewise. The papers he gave,you were destroyed?— Yes, I destroyed them and the copy of tb« letter, and the copy of the regulations I gave to one Douglas, those that remained were destroyed by my friends, |
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